DOES A PIANO SOUND LIKE A PIANO ?

[♔Chello]

DOES A PIANO SOUND LIKE A PIANO ?

Many demonstrators I have heard express impressed feelings when playing a synth or arranger, and they ALWAYS test Grand Pianos.

I, on the other hand, am left with the impression that there is a lot missing from a real piano.
Many mechanical sounds such as when the hammer hits the string and the resonance in the cabinet are missing - and the dynamics are gone.

I find the Pa5X to reproduce Grand Pianos lousy; and the same goes for almost all synths and arrangers I have had.

There are only 2 exceptions:
The Kronos 2 and the DGX-670.

The keybed's feel (weighting) probably has more to do with it than most people realize, and the Kronos uses RH3 while the DGX uses GHS.

Of course the Kronos is by far the best due to its RH3 keybed and dedicated sound engine, but the DGX is still better than all the others.

Acoustic Bass gives the same result, while other instruments can give good results on many cheap models.
When it comes to drums, the Kronos and the Pa5X are superb.

But why are Grand Pianos and Acoustic Bass so difficult to reproduce ?

This is largely due to the large frequency range, but also the use of near-field microphones (read: many..!) - both instruments make unusually high demands on the use of many microphones that must be set up correctly, and these microphones are insanely expensive, plus it takes a lot of time to set them up.
This means that the price of such samples goes sky high.
Samples of this quality are also often several GB in size.

I've played on a number of pianos, and they all sound much more alive than from an arranger or synth.

With all this in mind, I am very excited to see how the Grandstage X performs - I know that the Grand Pianos should be at least as good as on the Kronos 2, and the El Pianos and Organs even better.


But what about all the others ?

[✪richkeys]

I think with arranger pianos I have accepted that they are not digital pianos, but I still want to play solo piano on them occassionally.

Interesting comment about the DGX-670, I believe that one has Yamaha's Virtual Resonance Modeling which might help. I have also heard that Yamaha's P-S500 digital "smart" piano (it also has some arranger features) sounds even better than DGX with its higher quality speakers and it has a Bosendorfer in addition to their usual CFX.

Regarding weighted keys, I heard one comment on another forum that the piano sounds on PA5X are designed for the velocity curve of an 88 key weighted board. This makes the PA5X88 version tempting over the 76, however I have heard other comments that its fatar 88 key bed gets noisy over time and is kind of heavy and slow to play. If any one has an 5X88, please give your thoughts on this.

Rich

[⚅Graham UK]

Interesting article. Had my DGX670 (must be 4 years now) played every day and Key-Bed still as good as day one.

[♔Chello]

Interesting article. Had my DGX670 (must be 4 years now) played every day and Key-Bed still as good as day one.

⚅Graham


Your DGX has a very good version of GHS, and I remember it being much better than the one on the MODX M8, which is claimed to be the same.

As Rich says, the DGX has VRM technology, and therefore I would think my assessment is correct - the DGX's keybed is better than the one on the MODX M8.

[♔Chello]

I think with arranger pianos I have accepted that they are not digital pianos, but I still want to play solo piano on them occassionally.

Interesting comment about the DGX-670, I believe that one has Yamaha's Virtual Resonance Modeling which might help. I have also heard that Yamaha's P-S500 digital "smart" piano (it also has some arranger features) sounds even better than DGX with its higher quality speakers and it has a Bosendorfer in addition to their usual CFX.

Regarding weighted keys, I heard one comment on another forum that the piano sounds on PA5X are designed for the velocity curve of an 88 key weighted board. This makes the PA5X88 version tempting over the 76, however I have heard other comments that its fatar 88 key bed gets noisy over time and is kind of heavy and slow to play. If any one has an 5X88, please give your thoughts on this.

Rich

@Rich


Many thanks for your enriched reply.

What you say about the Pa5X 88 I have also read from Korg somewhere - that the piano sounds are designed for 88 keys.

Many users have reported mechanical problems with the keybed on the 88 with keys that are noisy from day one and do not react as they should; some keys are differently and unevenly calibrated.

The Pa5X 76 is just about good enough and better than the Pa3X/Pa4X, but the Pa1X 61 is actually far better than the Pa5X 76..!
I have a keybed lying around from a broken Pa1X 61 model.

And my Audya 76 is better than the Pa5X 76, while the 9000 Pro is the best I have tried of all arrangers with its synth-weighted keybed, which is almost the same as the one on the OASYS, but is better noise-dampened.

[⚖musicalmemoriesuk]

I think it’s also down to our perception of what a grand piano or any sound for that matter, on an arranger keyboard the samples will have been recorded at a specific moment in time and the sound will absorb the environment it was recorded in to a certain extent.

So when we actually play the sounds at home on our arrangers the sounds will further take in the environment if you using speakers.

Even if we have had a chance to play for example a grand piano chances are the acoustics and environment will different to those uses to record the samples.

[♔Chello]

I think it’s also down to our perception of what a grand piano or any sound for that matter, on an arranger keyboard the samples will have been recorded at a specific moment in time and the sound will absorb the environment it was recorded in to a certain extent.

So when we actually play the sounds at home on our arrangers the sounds will further take in the environment if you using speakers.

Even if we have had a chance to play for example a grand piano chances are the acoustics and environment will different to those uses to record the samples.

⚖musicalmemories


Everything you say is correct.

But as a HiFi enthusiast I would still add:

- The sound will absorb the environment to a very minimal extent using the most suitable near-field microphone technique.

- Superb quality speakers/amplifier will reduce the degree of sound change.

- A professionally acoustically damped room will reduce the degree of sound change.


So if everything is optimized the difference may be minimal, but the real acoustic piano will always sound better.

[✪richkeys]

With all this in mind, I am very excited to see how the Grandstage X performs - I know that the Grand Pianos should be at least as good as on the Kronos 2

[♔Chello]

With all this in mind, I am very excited to see how the Grandstage X performs - I know that the Grand Pianos should be at least as good as on the Kronos 2

@Rich

Thanks for your interest and participation.

I expect to receive the Grandstage X at the end of this month or early February, and will probably present a comprehensive test quite soon after.

The Kronos 2 has so far been my king for reproducing Grand Pianos (I sold it due to its layout).

There should be a significant difference between this and the Grandstage X, because the Kronos is a general synth (with its own sound engine for Grand Pianos), while the Grandstage X is a Stage Piano with updated samples and technology.

In addition, Grandstage X has several unique effects directly available, which dramatically expands the possibilities for influencing the soundscape - no one else has these effects.

The Kronos is probably better on some instruments due to its 9 sound engines, but the Grandstage X has 7, of which 3 are reserved for organs, and thus organs should be better than with the Kronos.

Korg claims that the Grandstage X also covers all other instruments at a professional level, but I doubt this - I will test all 700, so we will see what the verdict is...

[✪richkeys]

The Kronos 2 has so far been my king for reproducing Grand Pianos (I sold it due to its layout).